Doxologist ContentPredestination: What Wondrous Love is This?
Today, all day long, my dear brother Mark Driscoll poured himself out for us to speak about what the scripture has to say on the sovereignty of God. The question was answering was part of our series “Religion Saves & 9 Other Misconceptions” and asked, “Why does an all loving, all knowing, and all sovereign God will into creation people He foreknows will suffer eternal condemnation? Why does Romans 9:20 feel like a cop-out answer?”Pastor Mark did an outstanding job of breaking down this highly contentious issue with historical context, theological clarity and biblical truth. As I sat there I could not help but think of the great hymn, “What Wondrous Love is This”. This if one of my favorite texts that we sing at Mars Hill. A few years ago I discovered it and took the text and wrote a new melody. Last year my band and I recorded it for the “Rain City Hymnal” project due out next month. Here is a the text: What wondrous love is this, O my soul, O my soul! What wondrous love is this, O my soul!
What wondrous love is this that caused the Lord of bliss
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul, for my soul,
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul.
When I was sinking down, sinking down, sinking down,
When I was sinking down, sinking down,
When I was sinking down beneath God’s righteous frown,
Christ laid aside His crown for my soul, for my soul,
Christ laid aside His crown for my soul.
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing, I will sing;
To God and to the Lamb I will sing.
To God and to the Lamb Who is the great “I Am”;
While millions join the theme, I will sing, I will sing;
While millions join the theme, I will sing.
And when from death I’m free, I’ll sing on, I’ll sing on;
And when from death I’m free, I’ll sing on.
And when from death I’m free, I’ll sing and joyful be,
And through eternity I’ll sing on, I’ll sing on,
And through eternity I’ll sing on.
Here’s a final mix of the song as it will be heard on Rain City Hymnal:
It is absolutely essential that every person who claims the name of Christ wrestles with these ideas.
Please take time to dig into this doctrine through the word this week. Listen to Pastor Mark’s sermon again and look up the passages. And, if it helps, spend some time with this song in personal worship through song.
In Christ…
Pastor Tim
Thanks for this Tim. It is very insighful and reflective. The thing that stands out to me about this song it the way he describes the ‘righteous’ frown. It is amazing that God is the only one who has the right to judge us and he sends His son to forgive and call us. Forgive the length of this comment but it also makes me think of the more recent attacks on the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement. I am not sure how I would be able to stand free in heaven singing on without Jesus standing and dying in my place becoming victim to the ‘frown’ of God.
-craig
amen.
I love that song.
Tim, the version of what wonderous love is this on the podcast is AWESOME. I was wondering will the Rain City Hymnal be available for those not in Seattle on iTunes when it comes out?
[...] kind of electronic distribution so that we can some loving down under. Check out one of the songs here. No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on this post. Leave a comment [...]
It’s like the more I dig into God’s Word, the more convicted I am that Predestination, when taken on an individual level, is an arrogant concept. When I try do put scripture in the correct context, I see that it was the New Covenant that was predestined. Are we Patriarchs, or father’s of nations? I’ll be happy just to get into God’s kingdom; another contrary concept to five point Calvinism. If I analyze scripture, I don’t see it telling me that once I’m saved, I’m always saved. This can be a dangerous concept if people are still in sin.
Thanks for the perspective, John.
On the contrary, I personally believe that the doctrines of Grace are the antithesis of arrogance because they put God as central to the whole issue, not man.
In the end, these debates have been raging since the birth of Christendom and the issue won’t be settled here. In the meantime I think we can all agree as brothers in Christ, to disagree agreeably. MH generally takes a predestinarian point of view and that will likely not change.
But thanks for the input.
Thanks for the response Pastor Johnson. Yes the Grace of God is very important for our well being and we need Jesus to be our central theme, otherwise we of ourselves are only sinners. Our differences go all the way back to the Roman Emperor Augustine, who never entirely outgrew the Manichaean movement. The “Eternal Security” doctrine comes from this movement. The Pagan rituals in Christmas were accepted also during this era. The question I have is, “where does Paul Williams get that one cannot fall from grace idea?” Aleister Crowley even confesses to predestination in his autobiography, page 67. If these wicked men believe in the same doctrine as the church then what does that say about the doctrine? Do you really believe that Mr. Crowley is in heaven because he believed in predestination? Although I cannot push my own personal legalism off on others, I believe it is a must for me to hold myself accountable to obeying the scriptures. All I have to do is underline the word scarely in 1 Peter 4:17-19. Didn’t the early church teach that we could fall from grace and any teaching on the contrary was Gnostic? Not according to Charles stanley. He said “Sin like the Devil… [and] you won’t loose your salvation.”
Believing in predestination does not necessarily mean one believes in the “Eternal Security” doctrine that is so prevalent today. “Eternal Security,” as it is described today, is unbiblical. It teaches that if you prayed a little diddy that someone told you to repeat one time and walked an aile you’re good to go; might as well be baptismal regeneration. If you want a name and a label I think it is more appropriate to say perseverence of the saints, and this does not mean that a person can sin like the devil and still be “in.” Romans 8:29-30 clears it all up really. God intimately knows someone before time, then chooses them. This choosing is for the purpose of conforming someone to the image of His Son (sanctification, which means not sinning like the devil). Those who he calls (elects) he justifies, and those whom he justifies he glorifies. Paul no where mentioned the New Covenant being predestined, justified, or glorified. He was specifically talking about individuals. This isn’t from Augustine, it is from Paul.
Thanks Jon for the clarity. I get alarms that go off all over when I hear the phrases “Eternal Security,” “Past, Present and Future sins are forgiven,” and “Predestination.” Predestination can be and is taken as eternal security by some sects.
Of course I must align Mark and others up to the Word of God not knowing what I’m getting into here. In other words, I will trust my Bible before I’ll trust any preacher’s interpretation of it. I find it more respectable for a pastor who doesn’t put himself beyond reproach.
There is one thing I appreciate about Mark, he doesn’t give anyone a license to sin.
[...] Mars Hill Church in Seattle recently released a worship album, Rain City Hymnal Vol 1. I picked up a copy at the Resurgence Conference in March and I’ve been listening to it since. It’s very good. You can check out one of the songs here. [...]
Enjoyed your read. A great song.
I talk about this song on my website in the “godwoman” section. Sad how a pagan rock star can rape such a wonderful song.
Jim
http://LetHerIn.org